New Lift

[LongRanger]

Fixed but fast with a carpet loader maybe
Though dismountable is much easier for beginners to avoid lots of falls on dismount.

[essslsclsact]

I'd be concerned about a carpet for beginners and small kids. I suspect many many of them will need an assisting adult.

[goldenboy80]

Yes, a carpet loader would speed things up. Are carpet loaders good for beginners? If it's your first day, is carpet-loading more precarious or is it safer and cause less spills?

Maybe kids more nervous but teens and adults less nervous about them?

I guess the other argument about keeping it fixed is that you've got a virtually wind-proof option all the way from the base to Spillway cross-cut.

[Alpiner]

Hopefully they'll replace it with one that goes all the way to #3, with a midstation at Peavey.

That would be the best solution IMO but I think Sugarloaf would be reluctant to install a lift that requires 50% more paid human operators at all times. Just a hunch. I can imagine their thinking is that the CVA t-bar will provide the link from the top of the Boardwalk quad to #3T.

I guess the other argument about keeping it fixed is that you've got a virtually wind-proof option all the way from the base to Spillway cross-cut.

Pretty sure a fixed grip is no more wind-proof than detachable. The problem with wind, afaik, is chairs swinging and hitting lift towers and/or making unload difficult/impossible. And generally scaring the crap out of people.

Yes, a carpet loader would speed things up

I don't see how. When the two are running at the same time, you can see that Skyline doesn't run any faster than DR west.

"a modern, high capacity chairlift."
That doesn't sound like a detachable.

Right? I'll never forget when they advertised the new King Pine and Whiffletree fixed grip quads as "high capacity". That is some marketing-speak right there.

Maybe the higher operating cost to run a detachable (especially on low capacity mid-week days) makes detachable operation sub-optimal and not worthwhile for SL.

Agreed.

A 35-year-old lift from a long-defunct manufacturer? Zero, thankfully.

You would think so, right? Although I think you're probably right, I think the odds are non-zero. Chairs and towers and other components with few/no moving parts age very slowly, they could be repurposed. The biggest problem with doing so would be optics.

[Alpiner]

Hopefully two new lifts for next year. I believe they have to do WME to keep getting premium prices on new developments and it might be more efficient doing two installs in one summer. These type plans at SL were often iffy, but with 2023 so close maybe we’ll see both happen. That would be great news for Sugarloaf’s loyal customer base.

Agreed. They've hyped WME so much and the price of the real estate and lots currently for sale highly depends on it (remember Sugarloaf owns Mountainside RE). If WME doesn't happen in 2023 it will be a major fumble. No, a Buckner.

[goldenboy80]

Terrible time to sell real estate next year versus a couple years ago or a couple years from now. Mortgage rates will continue to rise and the economy will solidly be in recessionary territory not seen since 2008/9. The one saving grace is that Maine is typically a bit insulated in terms of volatility, not crashing as hard or zooming as fast. There are still plenty of doctors and lawyers who will be interested in buying townhouses and lots on WM. Will they feel so inclined to make a big purchase given economic malaise and high rates next year? We will see...

[Glade Monkey]

IMHO the lifts most in need of replacement are the two Double Runners due to age and central location.

Hey- maybe someone was listening DR is now the first listed for replacement on the newly revised 2030 timeline, in 23 or 24

DOUBLE RUNNER REPLACEMENT AND UPGRADE
A centrally located lift, Double Runner will be replaced and upgraded with a modern, high capacity chairlift.

This will be done before the WME?

No. WME is on for 2023. This is the first replacement lift on the timeline now for either 23 or 24

[Alpiner]

Bottom bull wheel is up!
https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=5 ... 5518031395

[SpillwayEast]

Terrible time to sell real estate next year versus a couple years ago or a couple years from now. Mortgage rates will continue to rise and the economy will solidly be in recessionary territory not seen since 2008/9. The one saving grace is that Maine is typically a bit insulated in terms of volatility, not crashing as hard or zooming as fast. There are still plenty of doctors and lawyers who will be interested in buying townhouses and lots on WM. Will they feel so inclined to make a big purchase given economic malaise and high rates next year? We will see...

I agree. Its going to be interesting how fast this development sells when it comes to market.

[Glade Monkey]

CVA T-bar towers going up compliments of Fall Line construction on Instagram
(No chopper needed)
https://www.instagram.com/p/CkPB3Tksnmu/?igshid=MDE2OWE1N2Q=

[High Ball]

Terrible time to sell real estate next year versus a couple years ago or a couple years from now. Mortgage rates will continue to rise and the economy will solidly be in recessionary territory not seen since 2008/9. The one saving grace is that Maine is typically a bit insulated in terms of volatility, not crashing as hard or zooming as fast. There are still plenty of doctors and lawyers who will be interested in buying townhouses and lots on WM. Will they feel so inclined to make a big purchase given economic malaise and high rates next year? We will see...

I agree. Its going to be interesting how fast this development sells when it comes to market.

With 200 residences for sale and a list of 300 folks ready to buy, probably not long. Anyone that's looking to invest around a million in a ski house isn't worried about rising interest rates and inflation. Just my opinion, but I think the biggest risk in this development is the tight labor market impacting construction and property management for the HOA's.

[goldenboy80]

I am not suggesting these are not very special properties and I agree there will be strong interest. But I do think people looking to invest around a million in a ski house ARE worried about rising interest rates. If you're borrowing, say, $800,000, and your $4,500 monthly payment just became $7,000 including taxes and fees, it could make you pause for thought in regard to timing. Of course you are absolutely right about all-cash buyers for which there will be some (many?). For those people, the next two years will present an outstanding opportunity to get a deal.

[High Ball]

I am not suggesting these are not very special properties and I agree there will be strong interest. But I do think people looking to invest around a million in a ski house ARE worried about rising interest rates. If you're borrowing, say, $800,000, and your $4,500 monthly payment just became $7,000 including taxes and fees, it could make you pause for thought in regard to timing. Of course you are absolutely right about all-cash buyers for which there will be some (many?). For those people, the next two years will present an outstanding opportunity to get a deal.

We probably differ on how many cash buyers we think there will be. If recent history is any indication, I think there will be a lot. People that paid $100k to $200k over listing price aren't getting a mortgage. The market up here seems to have lost some steam, with properties staying on the market a bit longer and some price drops, but demand is still very strong. I think the demand will trump the economy, but I agree that this train of thought goes against conventional wisdom.

[Alpiner]

Anyone that's looking to invest around a million in a ski house isn't worried about rising interest rates and inflation.

Not true. You might be surprised who can afford an expensive ski house. Yeah there's the really rich who can just stroke a check for it, but there are also creative ways for mere upper-middle-class folks to come up with the money. Like selling your previous ski property, and refinancing your permanent residence. These people are most definitely concerned with interest rates, which have more than doubled in just a year. 30 year fixed is about 7.5% now. That would definitely limit the budget for many, or simply cause them to wait.

The market up here seems to have lost some steam, with properties staying on the market a bit longer and some price drops

Frankly, sellers have lost their minds if they think 7001 and 7017 First Tracks are worth $1,800,000. It's no wonder they're not moving.

[goldenboy80]

I'm really glad to hear High Ball's assessment of the buyer universe. Maine is resilient. I hope that the project is a huge success and that it comes together quickly. It will be proof of concept for further ambitious on-mountain improvements. Whether you're buying one of these houses, visiting the new home of a buyer, or renting one for a weekend or holiday, these will be new, modern and fun ways to enjoy the mountain. Occasional or holiday visitors will have greater access to accommodations built in the 2010's / 2020's versus the 80's and 90's, which is a big deal. In addition to townhomes, I look forward to seeing some fine, single-family homebuilding take shape on the bigger ski-in ski-out lots. In my mind, the next step is adding 3-4 new high speed lifts, new modern retail and restaurant space, indoor parking garage, and a new hotel. This development has to work in order for the rest to follow.

[High Ball]

Anyone that's looking to invest around a million in a ski house isn't worried about rising interest rates and inflation.

Not true. You might be surprised who can afford an expensive ski house. Yeah there's the really rich who can just stroke a check for it, but there are also creative ways for mere upper-middle-class folks to come up with the money. Like selling your previous ski property, and refinancing your permanent residence. These people are most definitely concerned with interest rates, which have more than doubled in just a year. 30 year fixed is about 7.5% now. That would definitely limit the budget for many, or simply cause them to wait.

The market up here seems to have lost some steam, with properties staying on the market a bit longer and some price drops

Frankly, sellers have lost their minds if they think 7001 and 7017 First Tracks are worth $1,800,000. It's no wonder they're not moving.

I guess I would be surprised. If you’re a millennial, you can never have enough leverage on your balance sheet. I’m an old fart. My rule of thumb was if you need to finance a vacation property, you probably shouldn’t be buying it.

I saw those listings. I think those people missed the “crazy” by 6 to 8 months. Guessing there’s a price drop coming.

[High Ball]

I'm really glad to hear High Ball's assessment of the buyer universe. Maine is resilient. I hope that the project is a huge success and that it comes together quickly. It will be proof of concept for further ambitious on-mountain improvements. Whether you're buying one of these houses, visiting the new home of a buyer, or renting one for a weekend or holiday, these will be new, modern and fun ways to enjoy the mountain. Occasional or holiday visitors will have greater access to accommodations built in the 2010's / 2020's versus the 80's and 90's, which is a big deal. In addition to townhomes, I look forward to seeing some fine, single-family homebuilding take shape on the bigger ski-in ski-out lots. In my mind, the next step is adding 3-4 new high speed lifts, new modern retail and restaurant space, indoor parking garage, and a new hotel. This development has to work in order for the rest to follow.

I’m the eternal optimist and contrarian!

[SpillwayEast]

The market up here seems to have lost some steam, with properties staying on the market a bit longer and some price drops

Frankly, sellers have lost their minds if they think 7001 and 7017 First Tracks are worth $1,800,000. It's no wonder they're not moving.

$1.8 is crazy.......more than 3 times original purchase price. If they can get it great but I think they will be lucky to get over $950k but what do I know. I thought I was over paying back in 2012 for an on mountain property.

[goldenboy80]

The market up here seems to have lost some steam, with properties staying on the market a bit longer and some price drops

Frankly, sellers have lost their minds if they think 7001 and 7017 First Tracks are worth $1,800,000. It's no wonder they're not moving.

$1.8 is crazy.......more than 3 times original purchase price. If they can get it great but I think they will be lucky to get over $950k but what do I know. I thought I was over paying back in 2012 for an on mountain property.

These units have a great location but the interiors need to be gutted and redone at the price point they're asking. Perhaps the $1M+ buyer would rather choose their own contractors and interior designers to get it right. I think there's currently a disconnect in terms of the product and the price. Kitchens, bathrooms, and master suites are critical. The $1M+ buyer may have a hard time envisioning the "after" once renovations take place. An enterprising developer should buy at $1M-$1.2M, put in $200K-300K to fix them up, then sell for $1.8M.

[Glade Monkey]

The market up here seems to have lost some steam, with properties staying on the market a bit longer and some price drops

Frankly, sellers have lost their minds if they think 7001 and 7017 First Tracks are worth $1,800,000. It's no wonder they're not moving.

$1.8 is crazy.......more than 3 times original purchase price. If they can get it great but I think they will be lucky to get over $950k but what do I know. I thought I was over paying back in 2012 for an on mountain property.

These units have a great location but the interiors need to be gutted and redone at the price point they're asking. Perhaps the $1M+ buyer would rather choose their own contractors and interior designers to get it right. I think there's currently a disconnect in terms of the product and the price. Kitchens, bathrooms, and master suites are critical. The $1M+ buyer may have a hard time envisioning the "after" once renovations take place. An enterprising developer should buy at $1M-$1.2M, put in $200K-300K to fix them up, then sell for $1.8M.

For some local ski area market comparison the Merrill Hill development at Sunday River had 20-something LOTS listed for $500K -1.3m (2-6 acres) and they mostly sold after installing the new fixed grip triple chairlift. Meanwhile the Dream Maker Lodge to be built next to existing trails was announced about the same time with 20-something 3-4 BR condos priced from $1m up but has quietly faded away. Same thing seems to have occurred with the development over on Burnt with large lots but no direct lift access. May the lesson is: Build a lift and buyers will follow

[Lawshark]

The market up here seems to have lost some steam, with properties staying on the market a bit longer and some price drops

Frankly, sellers have lost their minds if they think 7001 and 7017 First Tracks are worth $1,800,000. It's no wonder they're not moving.

$1.8 is crazy.......more than 3 times original purchase price. If they can get it great but I think they will be lucky to get over $950k but what do I know. I thought I was over paying back in 2012 for an on mountain property.

I have no doubt that the market has softened a bit with these interest rates and the economy going sideways...but I know of someone who received 3x their purchase price after less than 3 years...and have seen similar outcomes on other properties. As was noted...many or most of the crazy sales prices are cash since none of them would have appraised out for financing purposes.

I'm in the business on this stuff on the legal side...and do a lot at the Loaf. Cash is king not just there but elsewhere. 35% of my sales in 2021 were cash...and we closed well over 1,000 purchases...cash was our biggest "client" by category.

Not that the Loaf will be immune from a downturn...but there are a lot of buyers who will be less affected by this.

[Alpiner]

My rule of thumb was if you need to finance a vacation property, you probably shouldn’t be buying it.

That rationale would prevent many young families from buying and raising their kids as Sugarloafers. In 2015 we finally outgrew the one-room situation at my parents' and bought our own 2-br (technically 1 with loft), 2-ba Snowbrook, which we had to finance. The payments plus HOA fees totaled about $1000 a month. This was perfectly doable, and paying a mortgage is so much smarter than paying rent.

[Pow on the Mao]

we financed 80% of our $50k A-frame in 2009. ha. we were 25.
shit. if they keep building the wyman pod it'll be worth $2.9M soon

another pub opening in eustis near the causeway. you will have CDH, Backstrap, Brickhouse, Trails End, and of course the Plaza.. all north of wyman. I'd say people are acquiring a taste for the north country. there is demand. the system is headed towards a breaking point, housing market will break. rates will reverse in 2023. once mortgages come down people will be locking in loans again. much value up here will be retained. they aren't building more wilderness.

[Alpiner]

Yeah, excited for the new Brickyard Hollow. I hear it will also be something of a marina, with the first gas dock on Bigelow.

And don’t forget Tea Pond Lodge and White Wolf Inn!

We went to Trail’s End “Steakhouse” once and were very disappointed in the steak.

[High Ball]

Yeah, excited for the new Brickyard Hollow. I hear it will also be something of a marina, with the first gas dock on Bigelow.

And don’t forget Tea Pond Lodge and White Wolf Inn!

We went to Trail’s End “Steakhouse” once and were very disappointed in the steak.

Agree on Brickyard….tough time to be starting a restaurant but hopefully a lot of the Yarmouth based Sugarloafers will support them. Coplin, Backstrap, Tea Pond, as well as the Looney Moose (breakfast) are the picks of the litter north of the Loaf. Calling Trails End a steakhouse is a stretch and I’ve had some pretty rough meals at the White Wolf. They’re both my desperation moves when there’s absolutely nothing else open.

[Alpiner]

Yeah WW is hit or miss and you have to be in the mood for the dive experience. Last time I was there I had a great meal, and sometimes they have game. Trail's End made a poor first impression on us so that's that. Call me crazy but any place that calls itself a steakhouse should know how to cook a steak, and should serve quality cuts. My ribeye was thin and overcooked. They should either get serious about steak or change the name to Trail's End Tavern or something to lower the steak expectation.

[Pow on the Mao]

hey lets not go shitting on the prime rib (since 1975). want to plug the plaza food too. its gotten pretty good under tommy's ownership. simple bar food but great pricing and i think its been solid.
this thread is about a new lift, right?

[High Ball]

hey lets not go shitting on the prime rib (since 1975). want to plug the plaza food too. its gotten pretty good under tommy's ownership. simple bar food but great pricing and i think its been solid.
this thread is about a new lift, right?

To say nothing of the strippers….are they bringing ‘em back??

[Alpiner]

IMO… bottom bullwheel tower is installed backwards.
https://twitter.com/sugarloafmaine/stat ... ZYphyPiDlw

[WrathOfAramark]

IMO… bottom bullwheel tower is installed backwards.
https://twitter.com/sugarloafmaine/stat ... ZYphyPiDlw

Are you talking about it looking like the lean is up the hill in the same direction putting the support in tension along with the tension of the cable instead of angling the beam down the hill putting it in compression in opposite of the cable tension?

Yeah, looks weird. But that's a beefy piece of metal and a T-bar has relatively light load differences between fully loaded and empty unlike say a 130+ chair quad with an extra 50,000 lbs hanging on the wire fully loaded. I'm guessing orienting it that way saves space for the bottom terminal. Steel is a pretty cool material in that it has good strength in both compression and in tension.