Private Club?

[Alpiner]

This discussion came up elsewhere. I wonder what it would take for Sugarloaf to become a private club. Seems like there is so much r/e here. How many passes would need to be sold at what price? Would it even be possible? How much does SL benefit from day tickets and Ikon? I'm guessing it wouldn't be possible, but I dunno.

[Alpiner]

https://www.hermitageclub.com/

[goldenboy80]

I think that the economics of the private club probably require some kind of endowment in order to offset the operational costs of say a 20-year time horizon. In other words, if the private club has $100M in the bank which earns interest at 7%, then $5M can be used each year to cover overhead, the remaining $2M can be reinvested to offset inflation, and the annual dues and other miscellaneous resort income fill in the rest of the annual operational cost. The private club would have to collect an awful lot of buy-in fees and real estate sales to accumulate the initial endowment to cover the electricity bill and cover payroll at Sugarloaf running 12+ lifts. At the Yellowstone Club, a limited-membership club charges an initial fee of $400,000 and an annual fee of $41,500 and condos start at $3 million with ranches north of $25 million. At Cimarron Mountain Club in Colorado, the initial buy-in is about $2.3 million, with annual dues of $62,000. There are likely examples of less tony private ski clubs that do not charge such high fees but they're probably simpler (and smaller) operations to run, more like a local ski hill. I remember Magic Mountain once sold shares to its loyalists to keep it in business. So I guess you could sell shares in the mountain to investor/skiers and keep it open to the public. Hermitage Club ran into a serious cash crunch. There are financing benefits and economies of scale from being owned by a big conglomerate.

[Glade Monkey]

https://www.hermitageclub.com/

You want Sugarloaf to go through bankruptcy again, like Hermitage/Haystack recently did?

1986
"CARRABASSET VALLEY, Maine -- Sugarloaf Mountain Corp. had to file for bankruptcy because it paid too much attention to developing real estate and not enough attention to the ski business, Board Chairman H. King Cummings said Monday.
'Clearly there was an over-concentration on real estate development, and not enough attention to our basic business which is the ski business,' Cummings said following a news conference at the ski resort."

[Alpiner]

I didn't say anything about what I want, just having a little thought experiment here. Personally I don't think it's possible at Sugarloaf. The idea was floated in another discussion elsewhere about how to reduce/eliminate on-slope collisions from behind. It progressed like: ski resorts are too crowded --> raise ticket prices --> get rid of Ikon/Epic/etc --> make private clubs.

If you can swing skiing/riding midweek, Sugarloaf already is a private club.

[goldenboy80]

Yes, unless you're just selling shares in the company to shift ownership from public to private and keeping the mountain open to the public with the goal of generating the same revenue as before, I think private ski club mountains really only work when it's dead simple to run with very little infrastructure to maintain... like 3-4 lifts open only on weekends and holiday weeks, limited snowmaking, one central clubhouse, and a couple grooming machines. Sugarloaf is sort of the opposite in terms of being a sprawling resort designed to accommodate a lot of visitors versus a handful of well-heeled millionaires seeking exclusivity. An interesting thought experiment nonetheless. I'm sure skiing at a private ski club out west on a powder day is pretty darn fun - like heli-skiing without the risk of a crash.

[gondicar]

This is the one TB12 and other gazillionaires like him are members of…

https://yellowstoneclub.com/

[goldenboy80]

Well if TB12 can have the Yellowstone Club we could have the Carrabassett Club... or the Farmington Select Society... or the Skowhegan Elite Alliance.

[Andrew B.]

[quote="Alpiner"]This discussion came up elsewhere. I wonder what it would take for Sugarloaf to become a private club. Seems like there is so much r/e here. How many passes would need to be sold at what price? Would it even be possible? How much does SL benefit from day tickets and Ikon? I'm guessing it wouldn't be possible, but I dunno.[/]
Honest question:

Are you OK?

[heavysquad4]

Should've bought Saddleback when it was for sale.

[High Ball]

Should've bought Saddleback when it was for sale.

Yep. If "there's nobody there" for a few more years, they might have another chance. Like golf courses, the third owners always make money.

[Alpiner]

Honest question:

Are you OK?

That's a loaded question!

[cccski]

Well, Alpiner raises a question regarding Sugarloaf that I never anticipated. The Hermitage Club at Haystack was an unmitigated disaster. The Yellowstone Club is unique, although as I recall, they struggled financially initially. There is a new private club in Utah in the portion of the Wasatch range between Canyons and Snowbasin. I think it's called Wasatch Ranch or something close to that although it is in the midst of lawsuits from the locals. It is a unique property, though, 30K acres with plenty of water. I believe they have started lift installations. They advertise, however, they are for the 1% of the 1%. Excuse me while I vomit.

So, if we do a back of the napkin analysis, I don't think we have to worry about Sugarloaf going private in our lifetimes. There are only so many multi-millionaires in the world. Only some of them ski, even less are dedicated skiers. They can ski anywhere they want in the world. Many have access to private jets to get them hither and yon.

So, Carrabasssett Valley airport cannot accommodate jets or even sizable twin engine aircraft. It has runway end indicating lights and that's it for a landing system. Sugarloaf is great for those of who love it, but like any lover, it can be pretty iffy at times. I think it is axiomatic that places out West have more dependable conditions and better weather. You can fly your jet into SLC, Ogden or Bozeman. At Sugarloaf, you can probably get a jet into Augusta, then enjoy your 2 hour drive.

I just don't see how people with oodles of money would spend it here when they can spend it in Utah or Montana. I think we are very lucky that Boyne is developing our real estate here. I have asked many times, however, how many people have 1-2 million to purchase a lot and build at Sugarloaf? We are and always will be in the middle of nowhere with a fabulous mountain with fickle wind and weather. Which is why Sugarloaf Chatters are here...... and nowhere else.

[Mr. Vesper]

I'll stay away with my friend Jack

[b632]

How does the saying go? I wouldn’t want to join any club that would have me as a member

[loafman207]

I usually ski saddleback midweek and that's as close to an exclusive club as I ever care to feel

[goldenboy80]

We are and always will be in the middle of nowhere with a fabulous mountain with fickle wind and weather.

Did anyone here ever fantasize about what it would be like to ski Sugarloaf if it was in Utah instead of western Maine such that it got 400 inches of snow per year. OK, I guess the mountain doesn't need to move. I guess the more realistic question is I wonder how Sugarloaf would ski in a 400 inch season on a sunny day. I bet the glades and snowfields would be crazy good.

I think the idea of a private ski club is not the best business idea - it's basically taking a very tricky business model and then eliminating 95% of the customers. I'm no finance expert but I'm skeptical.

[Glade Monkey]

Did anyone here ever fantasize about what it would be like to ski Sugarloaf if it was in Utah instead of western Maine such that it got 400 inches of snow per year.

I've skied off the Sugarloaf lift at Alta. Pretty sweet, but they legit average north of 500" per season!

[Alpiner]

Again - I'm not proposing this. Just wondering out loud if it's even possible. I suspect it isn't. But there are a lot of fancy houses and condos here, and soon to be more. At what price season pass would you give up and exit the mountain?

Yeah I've often wished to be able to control the weather. Sugarloaf becomes a different mountain with powder, and it can be glorious. I don't know what a 400" season would look like, but you have to remember that at least half the mountain isn't steep enough for more than like 12-18" at a time, depending on density and moisture content. A 2 foot dump usually means straightlining and/or following someone else's track in many places.

[mapg33k]

... you have to remember that at least half the mountain isn't steep enough for more than like 12-18" at a time, depending on density and moisture content.

Got first tracks in slashfire glade only to realize that I needed to break trail through 2' of snow to get back to king pine.

[goldenboy80]

In other words, we have just the right amount of snow. I like that.

[waldo]

Without going too off base... Sugarloaf needs to be an independent entity again.
Lets go back to a 'Sugarloaf' pass... Sunday River and Loon are two 'benefits I have never used and never do (I would be curious to know how many passes sold at SL never open a gate at Loon or SR).
If you don't busy a pass - then you need to buy a lift ticket.
Ikon / Epic / Mountain collective... need not apply.

[gondicar]

Without going too off base... Sugarloaf needs to be an independent entity again.
Lets go back to a 'Sugarloaf' pass... Sunday River and Loon are two 'benefits I have never used and never do (I would be curious to know how many passes sold at SL never open a gate at Loon or SR).
If you don't busy a pass - then you need to buy a lift ticket.
Ikon / Epic / Mountain collective... need not apply.

That would be a death blow.

[Alpiner]

In other words, we have just the right amount of snow. I like that.

Well, no.

[machski]

Without going too off base... Sugarloaf needs to be an independent entity again.
Lets go back to a 'Sugarloaf' pass... Sunday River and Loon are two 'benefits I have never used and never do (I would be curious to know how many passes sold at SL never open a gate at Loon or SR).
If you don't busy a pass - then you need to buy a lift ticket.
Ikon / Epic / Mountain collective... need not apply.

Well, my NE Pass hasn't opened a gate at SL in a couple of years running now. So there's that

[machski]

Well, Alpiner raises a question regarding Sugarloaf that I never anticipated. The Hermitage Club at Haystack was an unmitigated disaster. The Yellowstone Club is unique, although as I recall, they struggled financially initially. There is a new private club in Utah in the portion of the Wasatch range between Canyons and Snowbasin. I think it's called Wasatch Ranch or something close to that although it is in the midst of lawsuits from the locals. It is a unique property, though, 30K acres with plenty of water. I believe they have started lift installations. They advertise, however, they are for the 1% of the 1%. Excuse me while I vomit.

So, if we do a back of the napkin analysis, I don't think we have to worry about Sugarloaf going private in our lifetimes. There are only so many multi-millionaires in the world. Only some of them ski, even less are dedicated skiers. They can ski anywhere they want in the world. Many have access to private jets to get them hither and yon.

So, Carrabasssett Valley airport cannot accommodate jets or even sizable twin engine aircraft. It has runway end indicating lights and that's it for a landing system. Sugarloaf is great for those of who love it, but like any lover, it can be pretty iffy at times. I think it is axiomatic that places out West have more dependable conditions and better weather. You can fly your jet into SLC, Ogden or Bozeman. At Sugarloaf, you can probably get a jet into Augusta, then enjoy your 2 hour drive.

I just don't see how people with oodles of money would spend it here when they can spend it in Utah or Montana. I think we are very lucky that Boyne is developing our real estate here. I have asked many times, however, how many people have 1-2 million to purchase a lot and build at Sugarloaf? We are and always will be in the middle of nowhere with a fabulous mountain with fickle wind and weather. Which is why Sugarloaf Chatters are here...... and nowhere else.

Stagecoach Ranch near Steamboat is coming as well. They signed Lindsey Vonn as their ski celeb.

[Alpiner]

Without going too off base... Sugarloaf needs to be an independent entity again.
Lets go back to a 'Sugarloaf' pass... Sunday River and Loon are two 'benefits I have never used and never do (I would be curious to know how many passes sold at SL never open a gate at Loon or SR).
If you don't busy a pass - then you need to buy a lift ticket.
Ikon / Epic / Mountain collective... need not apply.

That would be a death blow.

Certainly. May as well make it a private club at that point!

[goldenboy80]

Not necessarily for Sugarloaf, but I don't hate the idea of a club within a resort. In other words, you could have a private community, clubhouse, and lift that are only accessible to club members but the rest of the public-facing part of the resort is still accessible to club members from their part of the mountain. It's sort of a snobby idea, but for those who are looking for that kind of thing, maybe the best of both worlds? For instance, you could have "Burnt Mountain Estates" and one high-speed lift that only those mega mansion owners are allowed to ride that maybe only operates on weekends and holidays. Again, not for Sugarloaf but maybe for someplace like Deer Valley or Beaver Creek or another resort with an animal as part of the name and extensive access to fondu and champagne.

[High Ball]

Without going too off base... Sugarloaf needs to be an independent entity again.
Lets go back to a 'Sugarloaf' pass... Sunday River and Loon are two 'benefits I have never used and never do (I would be curious to know how many passes sold at SL never open a gate at Loon or SR).
If you don't busy a pass - then you need to buy a lift ticket.
Ikon / Epic / Mountain collective... need not apply.

That would be a death blow.

Agree. You couldn't pay me to ski at those other two mountains, but I view that benefit as the premium paid to ski at a much better mountain, with nicer people and relatively smaller crowds.

[Alpiner]

Not necessarily for Sugarloaf, but I don't hate the idea of a club within a resort. In other words, you could have a private community, clubhouse, and lift that are only accessible to club members but the rest of the public-facing part of the resort is still accessible to club members from their part of the mountain. It's sort of a snobby idea, but for those who are looking for that kind of thing, maybe the best of both worlds? For instance, you could have "Burnt Mountain Estates" and one high-speed lift that only those mega mansion owners are allowed to ride that maybe only operates on weekends and holidays. Again, not for Sugarloaf but maybe for someplace like Deer Valley or Beaver Creek or another resort with an animal as part of the name and extensive access to fondu and champagne.

Stratton has a high roller club with a private lodge. They don't have a private lift, but I think they get early access. I cannot imagine nor would I be in favor of a club at Sugarloaf with a private lift other than an access-only lift like Snubber.

Riding down Chipper this season, I could imagine a new real estate development on the downhill side of Chipper, and an access lift that would get you to the bottom of the future extended Timberline at the corner in Chipper.