Annual meeting video

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Annual meeting video

Postby DoubleBitter » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:17 pm

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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby Skimaine » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:16 pm

Interesting that Crusher’s current thinking is to move the SuperQuad to Timberline (extended to Bullies) and the replace the SuperQuad with a six-pack.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby loafasaur » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:24 am

At the time, the S-quad's location was touted as being wind-proof. And who on this board hasn't ridden T-line with a stiff, NW FOLLOWING wind?
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby Pow on the Mao » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:18 pm

I'm down with the plan. New 6 pack would have short towers. New TL / SQ 2.0 would new lots o wind fence. Would elevate our game. Missing link would be T bar from top o spillway to summit adjacent to SQ 2.0. Need that. Especially with 2.0 loading down at bullies.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby JAC487 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:49 pm

I say they keep the old timberline chairs and towers to use in a king pine extension
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby High Ball » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:36 pm

A 50% increase in the trail traffic on NG, Hayburner, Kings and Tote.....YIKES !!!
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby Skimaine » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:01 pm

High Ball wrote:A 50% increase in the trail traffic on NG, Hayburner, Kings and Tote.....YIKES !!!


True. But no need to replace Bucksaw anytime soon.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby ceo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:44 pm

I saw the SQ/TL project on the project timeline slide, but he didn't talk about it. Is there more information on this somewhere?
I don't know if they could reuse the chairs, but the towers should be doable. A straight line back from the current TL base brings you to a point where you can ski down from Bullwinkle's, kind of off the back side. Or they could put in an angle station and allow loading there, but that'd be really spendy.
Some time ago they were making noises about putting in a new T-bar where the old Timberline T-bar was. And speaking of T-bars, I saw "Brackett Basin T-bar" on there too.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby goldenboy80 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:14 am

The year-over-year increases in all categories (plus real estate!) is a great sign. Going over the million dollar sales hurdle for a single property is a tremendous accomplishment -- hopefully will attract some of Maine's better builders and contractors to do more in this market. It seems like a good time to develop new condo inventory. Doubling the snowmaking capacity with the project relating to Caribou pond would be a game-changer. No news on significant capital improvements must mean that they have no clarity from OZ. I guess they don't want to get people's hopes up if they can't deliver. It could be dependent upon snowfall this year. If it turns out to be a bust, then last year's great season starts to look like an outlier and '15-'16 more like the norm. If the next big project is 6-pack SQ replacement and replace old Timberline with old SQ, that doesn't get me too excited. It's probably a good business decision but not particularly visionary. It doesn't spread people around the mountain or highlight any new terrain that's not already over-trafficked. Obviously, a high-speed option to the summit would be great, but still no talk around a Signature? That being said, the uphill capacity and snowmaking trails serviced by the current SQ is Sugarloaf's golden goose and so they probably want to protect and nurture it above all else, so I get it. Let's hope this year's numbers continue to trend upward!
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby DeadMoose » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:03 pm

goldenboy80 wrote:The year-over-year increases in all categories (plus real estate!) is a great sign. Going over the million dollar sales hurdle for a single property is a tremendous accomplishment -- hopefully will attract some of Maine's better builders and contractors to do more in this market. It seems like a good time to develop new condo inventory. Doubling the snowmaking capacity with the project relating to Caribou pond would be a game-changer. No news on significant capital improvements must mean that they have no clarity from OZ. I guess they don't want to get people's hopes up if they can't deliver. It could be dependent upon snowfall this year. If it turns out to be a bust, then last year's great season starts to look like an outlier and '15-'16 more like the norm. If the next big project is 6-pack SQ replacement and replace old Timberline with old SQ, that doesn't get me too excited. It's probably a good business decision but not particularly visionary. It doesn't spread people around the mountain or highlight any new terrain that's not already over-trafficked. Obviously, a high-speed option to the summit would be great, but still no talk around a Signature? That being said, the uphill capacity and snowmaking trails serviced by the current SQ is Sugarloaf's golden goose and so they probably want to protect and nurture it above all else, so I get it. Let's hope this year's numbers continue to trend upward!


They mentioned that OZ financed the expanded cat skiing and groomer fleet, and that it was pretty ordinary/easy transaction from their perspective. I took away that they are optimistic that it will be easier to work with them than it was for Boyne in the years prior with a pending sale and that timing was the issue going into this year. Not that it guarantees anything in the future but a positive impression would be my take away.
Not trying to be an authority...
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby goldenboy80 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:50 pm

I agree completely. It did sound like working with OZ was much better. Those guys are pros with deep pockets and a fresh outlook. I think the cat skiing project will be a big win for the mountain. It's a differentiates Sugarloaf, gets expert skiers around the northeast talking, and represents a new revenue stream. If the economy remains decent and snowfall continues to be abundant, I see good things on the horizon. I just hope future moves are bold, visionary, and well-planned.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby Alpiner » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:09 pm

High Ball wrote:A 50% increase in the trail traffic on NG, Hayburner, Kings and Tote.....YIKES !!!


This. Ugh. A sixer will ensure shorter lift lines/waits, but also that there is ALWAYS a crowd on the trails every weekend. The fact that I don't like this idea means it will almost certainly be implemented.

ceo wrote:A straight line back from the current TL base brings you to a point where you can ski down from Bullwinkle's, kind of off the back side. Or they could put in an angle station and allow loading there, but that'd be really spendy.


Straight line would be kind of cool as it would expose a new chunk of terrain. Maintaining snow on that section could be a challenge as it faces southwest and gets a ton of sun in the spring. It would also present the possibility of someone getting stranded down there at the end of the day. Those are the only two reasons I can think of to justify an angle station. They wouldn't allow loading at the angle station because that means paying a person or two to oversee the loading and operate the station.

Pow on the Mao wrote:Missing link would be T bar from top o spillway to summit adjacent to SQ 2.0. Need that. Especially with 2.0 loading down at bullies.


Would be nice, but, meh, just ski on down to the bottom of the new TL.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby loafman140 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:11 pm

If you take one of the front trails from the summit, there's no way to get back to the summit unless you skizzy all the way over to Bullwinkles. That's sucky and inconvenient at best, friggen blows at worst.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby Rossignolsoul7 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:06 pm

I am not totally against a 6-pack but not sure if moving the SQ to timberline is good thing. That lift will be on wind hold >50% of the time even if they keep it as low as timberline. The only good thing is that you can get to summit from Bullwinkles. Anyway, they should move it on Windrow and give some love to Windrow/Glancer area. This whole area is extremely pretty and having the SQ there would spread people all over the mountain in a more efficient manner.

A t-bar from Spillway-xcut to summit is what's really needed.

As far as the Caribou pond is concerned, I wouldn't hold by breath that it's going to happen in "2018" as mentionned at the meeting. KS told, if my memory is correct, something like "well, 10 years ago we had the OK from all authorities. Now it's different people, and we should probably have these discussions again at some point." Yes, you should, and perhaps you should have had these discussions prior to adding this into a slide deck shown before a crowd of >100 people and making a big spin that, with this project, we'll open all terrain by X-mas every year... just my 2 cents.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby b632 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:37 am

can we have a bubble on the 6pk
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby goldenboy80 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:27 pm

loafman140 wrote:If you take one of the front trails from the summit, there's no way to get back to the summit unless you skizzy all the way over to Bullwinkles. That's sucky and inconvenient at best, friggen blows at worst.

Maybe from a skier flow and liability perspective they don't want a lot of people lapping the front face (i.e. too steep, icy, and dangerous). If it was easy to lap the snowfields maybe the theory is that it gets skied off too easily. I guess by putting high-capacity lifts in areas that can accommodate high traffic they see a greater return on investment (more people can enjoy --> more lift ticket sales). Seems like King Pine and beyond is the new resort-approved playground for experts. It's a shame though because a lot of experts liked the ability to go from mid-station to the summit on a sunny, calm day when that existed.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby goldenboy80 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:28 pm

b632 wrote:can we have a bubble on the 6pk

Yes, you can. Everyone in the studio audience will find a bubble under their chair.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby LongRanger » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:54 pm

loafman140 wrote:If you take one of the front trails from the summit, there's no way to get back to the summit unless you skizzy all the way over to Bullwinkles. That's sucky and inconvenient at best, friggen blows at worst.


But no worse that it is today. If there was a summit route from KP or TOS it would be convenient but I have to question just how much traffic the summit face (front or back) can take. Sure T'L or NG can take a fair bit but I'm not sure that it could take the numbers.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby Ezra » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:49 pm

Did anyone have the trouble getting the volume , I did??
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby loafasaur » Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:43 pm

There's a lot of beautiful terrain, both for glades and intermediate trails, west of Windrow. Relocating the S-quad to the survey line over there would be sweet.

The wonderful increases in revenue are compared to 2015-16, which was a TERRIBLE year. Comparison to a 5-year average would be more relevant and undoubtedly is being done internally.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby bigelow » Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:14 pm

loafasaur wrote:The wonderful increases in revenue are compared to 2015-16, which was a TERRIBLE year.


I knew eventually somebody would bring this up :lol:
they do show the hangover was somewhat averted
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby muleski » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:10 pm

I think that I have attended every annual meeting since they started them.....at least 30 years worth. It's an opportunity to see some friends, etc. Do I put much stock in anything that is presented? Not that much, and less as time has gone on. Particularly in these days as having one organization as an owner, another as an operator, and then the local crew here on the ground at Sugarloaf. So here are my takeaways:

1. The results for last year, when presented year over year against one of the worst snow years in history, are obviously going to look great. If not, I'd have real concern. I'm not going cartwheels. Nothing that Ethan or Karl presented surprises me. Nothing earth shattering. Pas sales look very good. I'm a bit surprised at that uptick being as big as it is. I was also sort of surprised to see the good natured jabs at SR. All on the same team, haha. Good to have a sense of humor.

2. The discussion of the water at Caribou Pond was interesting. I have no clue what the permitting process would be today, the viability, etc. However, what sort of struck me as odd is that any discussion of snowmaking output or capacity in recent years has been based on the expense, where spending stands relative to budget, etc. I recall a lot of discussion of utility cost, the capital expenditures of new guns and new equipment, and I presume labor. I don't recall water being an issue. Maybe I missed it. So, for me, it's hard to visualize a massive effort to blanket the mountain early, based on water. However, it was made clear that there is virtually no business in December, and if Christmas week is not full, it hurts. So, maybe this is to ensure a full and very busy Christmas week.

3. I get pretty cynical with any discussion of Och-Ziff, just as I was with CNL. When CNL cobbled together that portfolio, friends who are REIT people told me that they thought it looked like an odd portfolio, and that it was entirely outside of CNL's wheelhouse of expertise. One said "this could be an epic fail." And it was. I presume that a lot of money discussions were rock fights, despite the lease terms. I'm reasonably familiar with Och-Ziff, and I have a friend who lives next to one of the Ziff brothers in Aspen. This thing fits even less with O-Z, IMO. I may be in the distinct minority around here, but a $50Billion hedge fund typically has much bigger goals than these "resorts" can deliver. Unless the sum of the parts is worth more than the whole, and hey make deals pretty quickly. CNL had to unload every property, and as such sold them as a portfolio. The clock was ticking. O-Z is already in conversation about breaking this up, or so I have heard. They have sold the first property already.....one that some thought had almost no value. I think they did pretty well. So, if you follow this thinking, which is that the Ziff Brothers want to end up privately owning one of the former CNL portfolio, and intend to use the profits from the sale of the others to fund it, perhaps we should not be thinking that happy days are here, and that the spending faucet will be turned on. I'd suggest that we watch, and wait and see. If they spend freely in the meantime, awesome.

4. Lifts....see #3. We can listen to ideas and brainstorming all we want. What it tells me is that the buyer, when this flips again will likely be Boyne, in a partnership, and the clear lines of an owner and operator will not be there. The aged lift plan, and other infrastructure, combined with the lease, make this attractive to Boyne {or more attractive than to anybody else}, as they know it. I also suspect that they may be all OUT of Sunday River. They'll be bought out of the lease, for a nice sum. Just my hunch based on what else is going on in the business. So, I would not be waiting for an order to be placed on the six pack just yet. I guess that the six pack makes sense. I'm concerned with to much downhill traffic as well. Repurposing the SQ? I guess with a complete rebuild, maybe. The SQ is what, 30 years old? And not so "S", anymore. We'll see. It could be that the long term plan is for good serviceable lifts, that run, and that the sizzle of new lifts may not be in the cards. Just guessing.

5. The increase in summer activity, traffic, and revenue {either to SL, or to the region} is very encouraging. Maine Huts and Trails is a treasure. The MTB growth and development is just awesome. The wedding business is very good for the bottom line. All good. Hope they can continue to build on it. And even things like just good old hiking are more popular than ever.

6. I don't think that the real estate numbers signify that "the switch has been flipped." Any new development will be private development. Boyne and O-Z are not going there. So who wants to take that on, on spec? The record $1Mil sale is pretty neat. At the same time, we looked at one of the $1Mil plus homes when it first came on the market...I think five years ago? {not seriously, BTW, at all} Last, I'm not sure if Sam was totally accurate with his numbers about the number of properties on the market. Seems like Zillow and other online searches show at least 50% more on the market than he suggested. At any rate, it's not 2005, or 2006, nor is it 2012, etc. Encouraging, lines trending in the right direction. Lots of nice properties on the market. We'll see how they move.

7. If I were Kate Webber Punderson, I might have declined the invitation to speak on behalf of CVA. CVA has more challenges than ever. SO many. Referencing the report for ISNE about the challenges of northern New England independent schools might have made for a better presentation, but the real question is how are CVA's peers doing? The traditional NE ski academies. Not necessarily the prep schools who have ski programs {Gould, Holderness and Proctor for example}, but the schools who are ski academies and have been at this as long as CVA has. Burke, GMVS, SMS as well as the traditional winter term schools {WVA/BBTS, Mt. Mansfield Academy}. The three ski academies don't have enrollment problems, and the host of other issues. In fact I'm reasonably sure that all three have had more interest than availability...turn families and student/athletes away. Other ski academies in the West are thriving. I wish CVA the best. KWP has given this all she has. It is going to be hard to get this moving in the right direction. Many many changes to be made, I'm afraid.

Will be interesting to see how the Burnt Cat Skiing goes. Sounds like a smart marketing move, for sure. Nobody else can offer it. Backcountry, AT, side country are all hot growth segments.

Very excited to see Hunker Down, glad that the Morse's have D'Ellie's cranking. Good stuff.

Bring on winter. Been a touch warm, huh?
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby ja_loaf » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:38 pm

Rossignolsoul7 wrote: A t-bar from Spillway-xcut to summit is what's really needed.


By my estimate, prophet Rossignolsoul speaks the truth!
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby Ski_The_East » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:45 pm

ja_loaf wrote:
Rossignolsoul7 wrote: A t-bar from Spillway-xcut to summit is what's really needed.


By my estimate, prophet Rossignolsoul speaks the truth!

+100000000000000000000000
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby b632 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:55 am

Hey Muleski....good report, I think pretty right on.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby ottoclave2 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:55 am

b632 wrote:Hey Muleski....good report, I think pretty right on.


Seconded. Pretty much my impressions too.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby goldenboy80 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:59 am

muleski wrote:I'm reasonably familiar with Och-Ziff, and I have a friend who lives next to one of the Ziff brothers in Aspen. This thing fits even less with O-Z, IMO. I may be in the distinct minority around here, but a $50Billion hedge fund typically has much bigger goals than these "resorts" can deliver. Unless the sum of the parts is worth more than the whole, and hey make deals pretty quickly.

muleski- great summary and take on all of the subjects you hit. One additional point on the new ownership and whether it "fits" with O-Z. O-Z is not a monolithic $32 billion fund. They have several strategies and distinct funds. A prospective limited partner (investor in O-Z) can choose from a chinese menu of focused strategies or the multi-strategy master vehicle. So of that $32 billion they have invested across many strategies, between $3-4 billion is invested in separate real estate sub-funds. They prefer a very diversified approach to real estate investment, so in a sense, taking over the CNL portfolio was right in their wheelhouse. When you're sitting on billions of dollars of capital that you "have to invest" in real estate, and no other rational players (who are aware of global warming and an economy overdue for a recession) wants to get into the ski resort game in such a big way, the CNL portfolio starts to look like something of a bargain. So these real estate pros at O-Z are likely looking at Sugarloaf and the rest of the resorts in the portfolio as 5-year investments. If they think that Sugarloaf can be sold on for a higher price in 5 years by putting in a 6-pack (versus letting the SQ rust) they'll put in a 6-pack. If they think it won't make any difference then they won't. But O-Z has all of the tools in their tool kit (including fresh capital they need to invest) and I'm confident that they aren't afraid to use it. I'm pretty sure they'd like to see annual visitors and sales go up every year at each of their acquired resorts. You generally don't get there by sitting on your hands.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby machski » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:00 am

It is definitely a big jump capital wise from a couple of shuttle snowcats (what, $500K for both approx?) to a new 6 pack and move realign SQ to TL (I'd venture this would be in the $7 million ballpark). Don't think they know enough of O-Z to make this more than a dream list at this point. If a six pack does come and Boyne is still steering the ship, could very well be a heated bubble. After all, the new lifts going into Big Sky are getting these (or converted to) due to temps there. SL has similar cold.
O-Z did sell Mountain High in CA. Odd sale though, group that bought it was the original ownership prior to selling the asset to CNL. Not sure it is very predictive due to the parties involved. Similar to the buyout of Bretton Woods from CNL in that it was bought by the operator at the time. A more predictive sale would be an entity buying a resort from O-Z that is currently not connected to them. Just MHO.
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby skiMEbike » Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:48 pm

muleski wrote:6. I don't think that the real estate numbers signify that "the switch has been flipped." Any new development will be private development. Boyne and O-Z are not going there. So who wants to take that on, on spec? The record $1Mil sale is pretty neat. At the same time, we looked at one of the $1Mil plus homes when it first came on the market...I think five years ago? {not seriously, BTW, at all}Last, I'm not sure if Sam was totally accurate with his numbers about the number of properties on the market. Seems like Zillow and other online searches show at least 50% more on the market than he suggested. At any rate, it's not 2005, or 2006, nor is it 2012, etc. Encouraging, lines trending in the right direction. Lots of nice properties on the market. We'll see how they move.


It is well known they are not accurate with their numbers..I can't tell you how many times I saw this commercial on WSKI and just laughed as they continue to air it, and say "...12 times the volume of our nearest competitor..." 12 * 12 DOES NOT equal 128 !!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=18&v=FvcCiQBSc6I
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Re: Annual meeting video

Postby Alpiner » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:23 am

Appreciate the thoughts, muleski. The SuperQuad arrived for the '94-'95 ski season IIRC. So 23 years old. My house is 67 years old, should I knock it over and build a new one? I would say last year it was more Super than ever. Seemed like it had way fewer unnecessary stops and more uptime. Otherwise, Sugarloaf simply gets conditions that would foil any detachable lift, e.g. icing.

loafman140 wrote:If you take one of the front trails from the summit, there's no way to get back to the summit unless you skizzy all the way over to Bullwinkles. That's sucky and inconvenient at best, friggen blows at worst.


How would this be different from today? About 30 more seconds of skiing?

Accessing the summit will always be a two-lift-ride affair. Even if there was a reincarnation of the original Timberline T-Bar, which started next to Tote Road on Cinder Hoe a little downhill from the top of skyline, your lap times wouldn't be much better.
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